Recorded on July 20th, 2020
Note: Due to the length and quality of the recording, some sections of the interview were altered to make better sense to readers. I hope that this does not impact your reading experience!
If you are interested in drinking games and want to support black businesses, University of Dope is the game for you. Founders A.V. “$upreme” Perkins and Marian “Skinni Bee” Andoh created the game to show love for their favorite genre of music, and it has since helped solidify hip-hop artists in other outlets outside of music. I wrote an article covering University of Dope after discovering them while scrolling through Twitter, and after getting in contact with them, I knew I had to set up an interview.
Due to the COVID-19 pandemic, the interview could not be face-to-face, so we scheduled a Zoom call instead, which turned out to work in our favor. With everyone in the comfort of their own homes, there wasn’t any awkwardness or weird tension that sometimes comes with interviews. Within five minutes of starting the call, we were all cracking jokes and laughing like a group of old friends, and once the interview began everyone was comfortable and ready to go.
Marcus: What got you guys into hip-hop culture to begin with? Was it something that you both grew up listening to or did you get into it later in life?
Marian: I grew up with it. My mom is an immigrant, so she doesn’t listen to hip-hop, she listens to classical music and such. I got into hip-hop really young when she came here from Ghana. She had one of those old school music subscriptions. Back in the day, you would get a pamphlet in the mail and check off all of the CDs and tapes that you want then they would mail it to you. My mom listens to classical so she would just check off the one box category that would be there, and then she would hand it to me. I got Salt N’ Peppa, MC Hammer, Janet Jackson, and Queen Latifah, and that’s how I was introduced into hip-hop, when I was like seven.
A.V.: For me, I liked rock more like rock. I was more of a Guns N’ Roses fan, lowkey but high key. We had family members that worked in the industry and are still a part of the industry, but my brother’s from Harlem and he had a real Harlem type of talk. I think I was like 10 and he was like “my sister needs to know all the lyrics,” I feel like I was kind of bullied into listening to hip-hop. It was around me because of my family but my brother definitely was like “you gotta get into it.” I liked it and I definitely got into Biggie. There was a time when I was getting more into hip-hop, I think I was in the seventh grade at this point, maybe a little bit younger, and the boys in the class would always say “the girls don’t know the music, they just know the chorus!” I feel the internet had just started and we only had Yahoo and you could look up lyrics, like that’s the only thing you could do on the internet. Me and my friends would either listen to the lyrics and write them down or look them up and then battle each other, like the boys vs. the girls. It was a very weird thing it was like Westside Story, but we would just battle each other with lyrics kind of like hip-hop Glee. I’d say that’s definitely how I got cemented into hip-hop just by being competitive.
Marcus: Would you say the whole “hip-hop Glee” feeling translated to University of Dope when you were creating the card game?
A.V: That’s a good question, but by the time I met Marian, this is decades later, so I don’t think it necessarily translated but I’m sure there’s little sprinkles in there. Now I have to evaluate that as we go forward, so thank you, Marcus! I’ll think about that in the future
Marcus: Do you guys have any specific decks planned for the future? Any hints as to what they entail? If you do, do they dive into the different aspects of hip-hop culture or touch the broader spectrum of black culture?
A.V.: We do have expansion packs coming out. We have an R&B one coming out, “The Anatomy of R&B.” We have a couple of expansion packs already planned out, but the R&B one is definitely up and coming very soon. We’re going to try to branch out into segments of hip-hop, even down to the regions like the down south and how it's different from the west coast and how that’s different from the east coast, you know what I’m saying? Just like how school would break into different subject matters, we're planning on breaking into different subject matters, but still relevant to hip-hop culture. We’re not to really delve into just black culture period because hip-hop is for everybody.
Marcus: Have you guys thought about creating a deck for more modern artists? With the number of high school and college-aged students getting into hip-hop, there could definitely be a market for more new-age artists. Have you guys thought about tapping into that?
Marian: We debate that maybe on a monthly basis. Initially with our first rendition of this deck, we had the different artists in there and unfortunately we didn’t know their staying power, so there’s some artists that we had to remove. Not going to say any names. If you have the old deck and the new deck you can compare. But yeah, some artists didn’t make it because it was like “man, we were riding for you and you became a one hit wonder.”
A.V: I was actually talking about this on the beach, this exact same thing. We were like “We were all rocking for you… Desiigner!” So our cards will don’t become aged quicker than they should, we were like “hey, for these general studies someone really has to cement themselves in hip-hop history.” So we decided for the revamping that we’re not going to go any younger than Drake or maybe Chance… is Chance in this rendition? Cardi is! Even if Cardi doesn’t make another song, people are already going to remember her, but Desiigner didn’t get the chance to.
But in the future, because they wore me down I’m like “we can’t put the young dudes in there we gotta make sure they have hits,” but it’s funny because what you consider newer school is already becoming old school, like Drake’s generation is older to you guys, you know? I heard a Big Sean track on a throwback and I was like “Big Sean throwback?!” It’s accurate. Even like the Uzi Verts, they’re quickly going to become the Gs of that era, so definitely in the future we would like to have something like that, we just need everyone to get the original deck first. If it’s a younger person you have to have the first deck.
Marcus: Yeah, you gotta understand what’s behind it.
A.V.: Yeah, but if we decide to do a whole new deck, like a freshman class situation, then that’s something definitely different and we have to reach out to somebody about it.
Marian: Yeah we talked about doing an expansion pack with newer artists in there for different people who may be interested in that, but to alter general studies, no we’re probably going to leave it Golden Era. That was a driving force of hip-hop, the only reason hip-hop has made it this far.
Marcus: That’s what really cemented hip-hop’s place.
Marian: Exactly, it solidified itself even in commercial industries. That’s why we’ve decided to leave it alone. We’ll probably just do an expansion pack for the newbies, because who knows how long the newbies will be newbies, you know?
Marcus: Who are some of your favorite hip-hop artists?
Marian: I love and hate that question so much. Only because I feel like I’ve got a revolving door. I’m not a one trick pony. There’s always the greats! Back when I was your age I was a huge Nas fan because I was super into lyrics. When I was younger than that, around middle school to early high school, that’s when I was about beats so Bad Boy was everything. They ran everything. They was out here making money, looking like money. I don’t even want to name a particular artist, I'm just gonna go with eras. Like, I loved the Bad Boy era, I love Nas, and some newer artists I’ve been vibing with are probably Rhapsody and Saba. Things that I listen to back to back are 90s hip-hop, 90s Bad Boy anything and Nas.
A.V.: For me, definitely the Golden Age. I’m an east coast girl through and through I’m from the Bronx! Know what I mean? I live in Brooklyn! You know, east coast for sure. I think with hip-hop, people go to it or any medium of art for different things. I like music that describes a life that I don’t necessarily live, some people go to music to say “hey you are speaking directly to me because I live that life.” No, like I don’t sell drugs, like lowkey highkey I was a square, but it was like a whole new world, like no Aladin. I loved listening to it and being like “wow that’s somebody’s story! It goes together and the wordplay” and I love delivery. Also, with my upbringing, Bad Boy for sure, Lil Kim. The world does not deserve Lil Kim.
Marian: She one hundred percent deserves her flowers
A.V.: Yes. I love Jada[kiss]. I would listen to him rhyme the phone book over Common. Common had the “key to life” and I’d be like “ahh I’ll come back to it” because I just don’t like Common’s voice. That’s an unpopular opinion. I feel like it might be popular.
Marian: I don’t think it is and that’s okay.
A.V.: Haha yeah. That’s the reason why I like the ones I like, I really like [the] voice, like the tone of your voice, your delivery. So like Biggie, Jadakiss, Lil Kim, and a whole slew of others. I just love their voice, like they could do some ad-libs and I’ll be like “yes! Come on!!”
Marcus: Yeah, it’s always nice when artists have a certain flair to them. Especially nowadays, rap is so similar to other rap so it’s nice to hear that difference in voice & tone and general cadence.
A.V.: Yeah, and with the newer artists I like Meg. I know it’s controversial right now but I like Doja.
Marcus: Hey, you can separate the artist from the art.
Marian: Ehh not all the time, #RKelly.
A.V.: I feel like this is a safe space. I just like Doja! It’s good to see more female artists out here in the space because when we were coming up we went through eras of several genres of music where it is only one woman, you know? Beyonce. Britney Spears. Nicki Minaj. Like what, there only could be one. There’s always others but it’s like this is the girl. I’m glad now to be able to say “hey, even if I’m not listening to everybody, I’m glad there’s options.” Like there is a Rhapsody and there is a Meg and there is a Doja… if she gets her act together!
Marcus: It’s always important to see representation in music.
On a broader scope, like outside of hip-hop, who are some musicians you guys enjoy?
Marian: Back again to my mother’s music subscription. She also had a large record collection, so it was cool from my mom, but it came more so from my dad, and I liked bands, like I liked Earth, Wind, and Fire. I just liked soul and funk and Chaka Khan. I also listened to a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a LOT of Motown, like a ridiculous amount of Motown. Remember those commercials Amber the Time Warner Classic commercials that would come on at 6 o'clock in the morning that were like “Look at all these classics! These oldies!” I begged my Mom [for them], and they sent me like all the Motown hits from 1950 to 1970. That was my shit. I love Motown, jazz for sure for sure. I only get into classical music for my mom, like she loves Andrea Bertilli, so I kind of have an appreciation for everything. I like rock music, I love music from across the board. It’s not just hip-hop. Hip-hop was probably the first thing I fell in love with on my own, that nobody else introduced me too but myself, but all the other genres were introduced to me by my elders so I learned to love those first. They didn’t play hip-hop like that on the radio so that’s how I got into rock music and stuff like that. Hip-hop was my little secret love.
AV: I love 90s rock, ya know. Guns n’ Roses, Red Hot Chilli Peppers. “Otherside” is one of my favorite songs ever. I love the emo rock of the early 2000s, your Evanescence, your System of a Down, it’s a little bit more angsty but I like the sad emo, you know?
Marian: Paramore, Avril Lavigne and them.
AV: Yes! Yes! All of them! And I’m of Carribean descent so I love dance hall of course, as well.
Marian: I didn’t even mention Afrobeat!
Marcus: What are your plans for University of Dope in the future?
AV: How much time do you have? How long is this interview?!
Marian: Definitely events for sure. Just to be dope curators, not just a card game. Definitely into events, festivals, and stuff like that.
AV: And that play to her background in event planning. For me, I want us to have a whole media branch because my background is in media. With those powers combined, like Captain Planet and Voltron, I want people to think in the future like “Man, you know they started out as a card game?” I want someone to say that in, say, seven years. “They started out as a card game that’s crazy! And now we’re at the U’Dope Festival!”
Marcus: Have you guys worked with any artists as far as the card game goes?
Marian: We’ve had a couple game nights and a lot of artists have been answering our questions via the interwebs for COVID times.
AV: And some people just reposted us on Instagram!
Marian: Yeah! Some celebrities have reposted our cards on Instagram-
AV: And we don’t know how they got them!
Marian: *Laughs* We don’t know how they got our cards but they reposted us.
AV: What’s his name, Dream. It was like him and his wives and baby mothers were all commenting, so we tried to moonwalk out of there because there was a lot going on *laughs*. Who else reposted, Nice Wonder, and a lot of people were in the comments like Maxwell, Black Thought, and just a lot of different people. Peter Gunz has played, P Nice.
Marian: It’s growing! You know, it’s like a pressure cooker. It's bubbling, like right before you turn the water down.
Marcus: What are your favorite types of alcohol? Seeing as University of Dope is a drinking game it’s only right to hear your favorite drinks!
Marian: I love whiskey gingers! Whiskey, Jack Daniels and Ginger Ale, Uncle Nearest and Ginger Ale, Black Label and Ginger Ale *laughs*. I also like Moscow Mules when it’s a million degrees out like it is today. I do a Moscow Mule because I like ginger, so it has ginger beer in it and vodka, so that’s the only time I switch to the whites. But I pretty much stick with the darks.
AV: I feel like that was racist, Marian.
At this point we all burst into laughter, with Marian and AV talking over each other trying to explain their points of view. As I continued to laugh, AV concluded her point, with Marian pleading: Listen, don’t get us canceled please!
Marcus: I won’t, I won’t. This is a safe space, don't worry!
Marian: Thank you, Marcus. We were talking about the liquor!
AV: Exactly, liquor guys! Dark liquor!!
Marian: What’s your Amber?
AV: I’m a rum girl, because you know, I’m Jamaican. But yeah, I like rum and I like vodka. Nice cocktails, too. For a long time I didn’t like cocktails that had carbonated drinks in it, so like sodas, basically everything Marian mentioned I’m like “Eh, no thanks.” But *laughs* since we’re friends it’s like “you gotta try this, you gotta try this!” So, Jack and Ginger is not too bad when I want to socially blend in *laughs*.
Marcus: With artists like Tyler, The Creator, Kanye West and Drake at the forefront of hip-hop today, there’s been a general shift in sound. What do you guys think of that? Are you for it or against it?
AV: Off rip, I’m just gonna say this. Hip-hop will one thousand and ten percent always be for the youth. It was made for the youth, it’s the sound of the youth, I don’t mind the change at all. Some people are like “I hate these young rappers! Mumble rap this and mumble rap that!” I have never been one of those people because it’s not supposed to stay with me, it’s supposed to stay with the youth! The new songs that have been coming out, I’ve actually been digging, and again it speaks more to what the youth wants to hear than what my ass wants to hear. I already have my genre of music that I listen to regularly, so I don’t have any problems with the new sound. I love the new sound, people put me on to new artists because I never know who anybody is anymore, I feel bad. I’m always like an old person like “Who’s that.” So they’ve been putting me on and I’ve been digging some of the new stuff. Obviously, even in older hip-hop, there’s always going to be some songs that are just absolute trash, we had them in our generation. The new kids have them in their generation, so I can’t be mad about what’s going on. This is the general evolution of where it needs to go but it will absolutely stay with the youth all the time, that’s its voice.
Marian: I agree as well, even with Drake or Kanye, they’re old school now.
Marcus: Ehh, Kanye?
Marian: With Kanye, College Dropout came out when we were sophomores in college, so he’s definitely been around for a long time. Drake popped off after we graduated, not to age ourselves but that’s still a good 10 year+ run. When people listen to their music they associate it with certain memories that they may have.
As we continued to talk about old and new styles of rap and how the genre’s sound has continued to change, Marian showed some love to a New York native.
Marian: I do like Pop Smoke. When he died I was upset, especially because he’s from Brooklyn. Everyone in New York has been waiting for the next NYC hope to get us out of the shadow of the south. His birthday is today too. He would have been 21, it’s so sad.
Marcus: What were some challenges that came with developing University of Dope and what advice would you give to anyone doing something similar?
Marian: I’ve never made a product and pushed it out to the world ever and AV has also never done anything like this ever. So the thing I learned was that I really really have to sit down and do my research. When we did decide what we wanted to do and when we were figuring out the best processes to get this out, [we found it to be] protecting yourself and your ideas. I would definitely make that the advice I give. Let’s say you have $1,000 and unfortunately have to spend $500 to legitimize yourself as an actual business, I would definitely tell you to make that investment first before you start doing everything else. Obviously do you Google searching, check all of your social media names, handles and make sure everything is free and clear. Make sure you’re not going to infringe on someone’s other rights as well. I think that was our saving grace. I think the biggest challenge for us was from conception to letting people even order it online and have it ship to their house, the whole automation and figuring out how that process was gonna go was a super challenge. But, I think we’ve got a well-oiled machine right now, for the most part.
AV: I completely agree! I think another challenge, and this is kind of an ongoing challenge because once you make your things legal, unless you’re expanding certain things, you just have to build upon making those parts legal. Which is very important because, [for example] Nick Cannon, he doesn’t own Wild N’ Out and it’s like ‘you could own this money.’ Even though I don’t know the details and I know that Viacom could be, you know, there’s different things going on with the media in that regard. Anyway, make it legal if you like it. Or if you love it, make it legal!
Marian: Another thing for us is getting ourselves out there, because we are in a specific age group and demographic and they’re enjoying game nights now, [but] we don’t know how long they’re going to be enjoying game nights. That’s how they wore me down to do things for the younger people, as well, because we want to extend the life of our game.
You know how some brands have to worry about [people saying], ‘oh no, y’all put white people in the commercial now it’s over?’ We have to worry about, and no offense to you, [people saying] ‘who’s that 19 year old in y’all commercials they don’t know real hip-hop!’ Even though you can very well enjoy hip-hop and we enjoy your contributions to the culture, everyone doesn’t think like us. So we have to hit ‘em hard because we need to be focused and make sure everybody gets to know what we are doing. That holds us up when it comes to expansion packs because you have to have the original deck to have an expansion pack. There’s people who have been riding with us for years that are like ‘We need a new deck! We need a new deck!’ and we’re like ‘You need to tell your cousins to buy it first!’ But doing things like this and getting the awareness out has been helping us overcome that.
Marcus: How’d you guys meet? Is there a crazy story behind it?
AV: I mentioned earlier that I went to another university and I transferred to Central Connecticut State University, but I did not want to be there. I just knew I was gonna be there so [I felt like] I didn’t have to get to know anybody. I would talk on the phone with my friends from other schools because I didn’t need to make new friends. But Marian and I lived on the same floor.
Marian: She moved in and the thing was, we already had our room and bathroom situation figured out. She lived on the same hallway as me and that hallway would share a bathroom and basically, we were already there first semester and she transferred second semester, so everybody was already tight. We were all minorities so we were tight knit and when she moved in we were like ‘Oh shit another black girl, that’s what’s up!’ and she was just stank. Let me tell you, she would literally walk past us and would just be on her phone ALL THE TIME. There was never a time she wasn’t on the phone talking to somebody way more important than anybody in Connecticut. I didn’t become friends with her until she joined the dance team, we had a pep squad that was like a hip-hop dance crew, and I joined then she joined and that’s how I got to know her. Other than that I used to be like ‘Oh it’s the new girl who killed the vibe of the hallway!’
AV: In my defense, I wasn’t trying to be stank. I was trying to strategize to leave the school! My whole thing was I don’t want to make no new friends because I’m finna leave. You know, I didn’t want to create any attachments because I’m a nice person, but I was just like I don’t want to be looking at nobody, I’m not taking any major credits. It was kind of like how somebody has a part-time job, like ‘you’re not even gonna put it on your resume?’ That’s my attitude.
Marian: Yeah, but in that attitude you walk around with a certain air that you’re better, you know what I’m saying? Like ‘aw I’m outta here,’ you know what I’m saying? That’s what it came off as, so I was like ‘man!’ But once you joined the dance team I was like ‘I guess.’ We’ve been friends since!
Marcus: How do you guys plan on further incorporating Black Lives Matter into the University of Dope brand?
Marian: As of recently, a lot of black game makers were actually trying to come together and unify so we could get into more retail spaces. A lot of retail areas don’t really have a space for games meant for black lives. Granted our game could be played by anybody, but hip-hop was birthed by who? So, we’re [just] trying to band together with a lot of these other game makers out here, as well, more than you think, and just getting their names out there so we can be taken more seriously in a real retail conglomerate.
That’s one. I like to promote black business. We have a game show! I’m a firm believer of economics is actually power, and I feel like that’s the only way that we actually will overcome. So keeping the black dollar the black dollar is extremely important to me. Personally, I was already on my black power wave for years. I took a couple of courses in college and I’ve never been quite the same. I encourage you to do the same because it’ll make you woke, but not in an angry way. Recently, I’ve been going really hard in my black power spending. I'm trying to keep my dollar the black dollar. I drive out of my way to a gas station that’s not even in my town to get gas because I know it’s black owned. I figure if I just make it more of a comfortable conversation, like when I even go on interviews or meet people and they’re like ‘Oh do you want something to eat?’ and I’m like ‘Yeah! Anything black-owned around here?’, like making it a regular thing, I could make it a regular thing for others, as well, and branch out from there.
AV: And I’m fortunate because living in Brooklyn, although, you know…gentrifying Bedstuy, right? That’s the hot topic here in Brooklyn, we haven’t gotten to a point of let’s say Harlem, but I feel like there’s businesses here that may not have been appreciated 10 years ago, you know I’ve been here for over a decade and I support those businesses. When I’m not doing University of Dope I’m a DIY blogger and I host craft classes, so it’s a complete juxtaposition of what’s going on. By day I make crafts and by night I drink and talk about hip-hop with my friends. So, when I’m teaching those classes, especially when we were still outside, I used to host classes with Meetup. They had a program where they wanted people to meet up in real life, so I’d take the marketing of those classes and make sure to host a class that had black-owned businesses. So, they were like ‘hey a partnership, they’re gonna come purchase with you’ like a coffee shop or tea shop. Some people who do crafts or who have disposable income for craft classes may not only be black, and my thing is even though something is black-owned dollars are green. So whoever was coming in I needed you to spend with me and spend with them to keep it going.
Marcus: The black dollar is very important, it’s important to get our hands on all the money out here. If you look at the state of music, as far as contracts and the industry goes, a lot of that’s not really black-owned.
Marian: Yeah, there’s artists who have paved their whole entire way with all the master keys of the world, that are like ‘there’s not a place for me, I’m just going to create the space’ and I feel like black people as a whole need to do that. Sometimes it’s not even about having a seat at the table, it's about creating your own damn table.
Comments